Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders

Monday, 31 December 2012

Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Has anyone done well at Four Mile Run recently?

I hit up 4MR this afternoon, it wasn't on fire, but the water was clear by the bridges with a lot of gizzard shad lining the drop off by the bank on the south side. I caught a few decent Crappie, one LMB and some sun fish. I tried by the outflow as well with less success.

Carp were mildly active on the surface, Todd Kim caught a nice one, which I got a video of (Todd I don't have your email address, but if you send me an email I'll get it to you).

Howard

On Monday, December 31, 2012 8:35:18 PM UTC-5, Matthew Longley wrote:

A few things, mostly with the intention of restoring some civility here.

1- Brendan, I dont think the underlying issue here is what you are saying, but how you are saying it. You and I have butted heads in the past, but since then I have been really impressed with the contributions you have made to these discussions. I would certainly love to buy you a bunch of beers and pick your mind. But your notes have also had a very caustic and aggressive tone to them. It's my opinion that an honest apology, without caveats or 'buts', is in order. Take that as you will.

2- I think, as with most online conversations, the tone in general has gotten a bit out of hand. Some of the responses to Brendan's emails focus on points he made 3-4 posts ago, and some are meeting incivility with incivility. I'm not trying to call anyone out here, but let's all just take a step back.

Sent from my mobile device

On Dec 31, 2012, at 8:00 PM, TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Long responses -- to me it's simple. If hotspotting ("troutspotting" for the remainder of this message) pisses you off, you probably feel that:

1. trout are superior to other species

2. trout waters are superior to non-trout waters

Keeping secrets is perfectly fine. Listen. It's quiet. The silence you hear is all the people on the forum not sharing secrets, but also not posting angry messages about it when someone mentions throwing woolly buggers in pocket water.

I'll probably be dead in 30-40 years. Because of this (the death thing), and because I disagree with #1-2, I couldn't care less about troutspotting.

Plus, I love hellbenders.

Gene

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:
From the last few posts I've read it seems like the action is slowing down even at 4MR, and it's colder now than it was then. I was hoping to get out on Monday with my brother before he heads back to college. It's supposed to be 42 degrees that day - should we just hang out and tie some flies or is it worth going out? Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear? I can't figure out how to keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Has anyone done well at Four Mile Run recently?

A few things, mostly with the intention of restoring some civility here.

1- Brendan, I dont think the underlying issue here is what you are saying, but how you are saying it. You and I have butted heads in the past, but since then I have been really impressed with the contributions you have made to these discussions. I would certainly love to buy you a bunch of beers and pick your mind. But your notes have also had a very caustic and aggressive tone to them. It's my opinion that an honest apology, without caveats or 'buts', is in order. Take that as you will.

2- I think, as with most online conversations, the tone in general has gotten a bit out of hand. Some of the responses to Brendan's emails focus on points he made 3-4 posts ago, and some are meeting incivility with incivility. I'm not trying to call anyone out here, but let's all just take a step back.

Sent from my mobile device

On Dec 31, 2012, at 8:00 PM, TurbineBlade <doublebclan@gmail.com> wrote:

Long responses -- to me it's simple. If hotspotting ("troutspotting" for the remainder of this message) pisses you off, you probably feel that:

1. trout are superior to other species

2. trout waters are superior to non-trout waters

Keeping secrets is perfectly fine. Listen. It's quiet. The silence you hear is all the people on the forum not sharing secrets, but also not posting angry messages about it when someone mentions throwing woolly buggers in pocket water.

I'll probably be dead in 30-40 years. Because of this (the death thing), and because I disagree with #1-2, I couldn't care less about troutspotting.

Plus, I love hellbenders.

Gene

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:
From the last few posts I've read it seems like the action is slowing down even at 4MR, and it's colder now than it was then. I was hoping to get out on Monday with my brother before he heads back to college. It's supposed to be 42 degrees that day - should we just hang out and tie some flies or is it worth going out? Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear? I can't figure out how to keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Lo Mejor in 2013!! 4MR Tomorrow

Welcome. Ojala nos encontremos en 2013. I am in vieques as we speak and did a bit of fly fishing today. We met someone on the beach who gave us some conch - made some fritters, ceviche and fried strips. Truly awesome to be here. Drinking coconut water and rum fresh from the side of the road. Happy New Year all and I wish you tight lines!

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 31, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Senor_denito <feliciano.den@gmail.com> wrote:

I haven't had the opportunity to attend any beer ties nor meet any of you all out there, however te deso todo lo mejor in 2013!! That is, I wish you all the best as we Puerto Ricans say.

I'll be down at 4mr tomorrow morning for the first time ever, if anyone may be interested let me know. Or just catch me down there.

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

The first steps are good, Scrape off as much fat/meat and borax (or
salt, but borax seems to do better).

Freeze for a week, let thaw for a week, freeze for a week, let thaw for
a week. Some bugs eggs will survive frozen, but the larva stages will
not. You want to give the eggs enough time to hatch so you can freeze
them again. Birds are notorious for ecoparisites and you don't want
bugs in your other fly tying material.

I usually microwave any wild/roadkill skins. It might damage hair or
feathers a bit, but I'm not willing to get bugs in my supplies.

Carl.

On 12/31/2012 03:54 PM, Steve F wrote:
> So as I see it, be sure to scrape as much meat/fat/sinew out of the
> hides as possible, douse liberally with borax, maybe throw it in the
> freezer for a couple days, and it should be good to go? Or is there a
> curing/drying step that should happen in there as well?
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{Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Has anyone done well at Four Mile Run recently?

Long responses -- to me it's simple. If hotspotting ("troutspotting" for the remainder of this message) pisses you off, you probably feel that:

1. trout are superior to other species

2. trout waters are superior to non-trout waters

Keeping secrets is perfectly fine. Listen. It's quiet. The silence you hear is all the people on the forum not sharing secrets, but also not posting angry messages about it when someone mentions throwing woolly buggers in pocket water.

I'll probably be dead in 30-40 years. Because of this (the death thing), and because I disagree with #1-2, I couldn't care less about troutspotting.

Plus, I love hellbenders.

Gene

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:

From the last few posts I've read it seems like the action is slowing down even at 4MR, and it's colder now than it was then. I was hoping to get out on Monday with my brother before he heads back to college. It's supposed to be 42 degrees that day - should we just hang out and tie some flies or is it worth going out? Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear? I can't figure out how to keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} tippet, leaders, and spinning line

quick point on tippet -- it definitely does degrade. I was out west on a trip and the big water wasn't fishing great so went up to fish some of the streams for cutts. Had to pick up some 5x tippet from the local outfitter/gas station that i guess had been on the stand in the sun for a couple years and could barely hold the fly on, much less a fish. Trimmed the leader a bit and switched over to whatever mono line weight i had on the ultralight spin setup i usually keep in the trunk and it worked okay. probably trying to fish tiny flies with half as much taper to the leader as normal was the biggest problem, but found the lies to be much less natural. Poppers/Streamers, never had a problem with use 10-14lb spin line as tippet, for reasons dan mentions.

Richie and Dan can probably answer this better, but i usually chuck any tippet left in my bag after 2 seasons.

On Monday, December 31, 2012 1:33:37 PM UTC-5, dubblehaul wrote:

Awesome post! Thanks, Dan!

On Dec 31, 2012, at 1:48 AM, Daniel Davala <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great thread guys, here are a few of my thoughts on the matter. When I started fly fishing in my early teens, I didn't even know what a tapered leader was. I had never heard the term "tippet", and X's were just something George Strait sung about that lived in Texas (I was quite the country boy back then with quite the mullet too). In fact, I'm glad I didn't know what these things were because it might have scared me away - I just wanted to try fishing with a fly rod, right? I did know I needed a leader though, so I just used a rod length of what I had a lot of - 12lb Berkley Trilene - red label. Why Trilene? Simple - because I liked watching Hank Parker (not Patterson) fish on TV in the 80's and he used it!

Most of my fly fishing then was for Panfish and Bass, and some occasional streamer fishing for Trout on camping trips. Simply put, my 8' un-tapered leader of 12lb Berkley Trilene turned over my "Dial a Popper" Bass bugs and Black Ghost or Muddler Minnow streamers just fine. I caught plenty of fish and more importantly, I had tons of FUN! So if the question is, "can I use regular fishing line for leaders", the short answer is YES! That was how I started and it clearly didn't ruin my experience.

One point of clarification on something Carl said earlier too, a leader does not actually "need" to be tapered to be a "leader". The term "Leader" simply refers to the length of monofilament line (be it nylon, fluorocarbon, gut, or any other applicable material) between the fly line and the fly. It can be long or short, tapered or not. A leader that has no taper is called a "Level Leader". A great and practical example is how we rig for Shad in the Spring, and for most sinking line work in general - with a 2'-3' un-tapered "Leader" of the appropriate breaking strength. Also, a 7'-9' un-tapered ("level") leader of 25lb test can work great on a floating line for Bass in thick lilly pads.

SO THEN.........WHY EVEN USE ACTUAL TAPERED LEADERS AND FLY FISHING SPECIFIC TIPPET MATERIAL???????????????

Well, if you only plan on fishing with large or weighted flies, hard body poppers, and heavy nymphs, technically you don't need to. The simple test is, if you can easily throw the fly you want to fish with at least a rod length away, then it has enough mass to turn itself over at the end of a cast, so a tapered leader is not required.  BUT, there are definite performance benefits to using one. Besides turning the fly over, part of a tapered leader's job is to transition the energy of a cast from the fly line all the way to the fly. Ideally, the thicker butt section of the leader should be kept in close proximity to the diameter of the very tip of the fly line, so the energy transfer is as seamless as possible. Without that thick leader butt section, the fly line has a tendency to "kick" as the tip unrolls and can throw a shock wave straight down the leader to the fly causing it to smack down harder than intended or flop off-target. Also, when using and un-tapered "level" leader, you are just as likely to break off at the line/leader connection as you are at the fly, so you stand to lose the whole leader any time you snag or hang up on something. The thick butt section of a tapered leader is usually in the neighborhood of 50lb test, so it is likely you will only break off at the knot attaching the fly.

If one fishes with a wide variety of flies, both in type and size (such as when Trout Fishing), then it is hard to be fully effective without a tapered leader and a wide range of tippet sizes.  Most dry flies really need the help and design of a tapered leader to turn over well (fully extend) at the end of a cast. It is also important to keep the very tip of the leader, or "tippet" section diameter relative to the size of fly being used. When I go trout fishing in all but small streams, I carry with me spools of tippet from 0X-7X since I may fish a #2 streamer at one time, a #24 Trico at another, and anything in between over the course of a day. Carrying 8 small spools of "tippet material" is infinitely easier and lighter than large mix/match spools of conventional fishing line, and it allows me to conveniently build, modify, and rebuild my leader as necessary.

The convenience of the smaller spools is also great when fishing locally on the Potomac. Most days on the river, at least when Striper fishing, I carry only a pair of forceps, some snips, a tippet spool of 16lb fluoro (or 0X), and a pocket sized box of Clousers.  Hard to beat that kind of simplicity!

And last, there certainly is a difference in quality/consistency when comparing mono-filament sold as "fly fishing tippet" to the large spools of conventional fishing line. Tippet sold as 0X-8X, for example, is graded on diameter, so the tolerances are much tighter and the diameter is the same from one end to the other. Bulk spools of conventional fishing line have a diameter range printed on the spool, so a 300yd spool of 8# test may have an acceptable diameter allowance of .008"-.010" from one end to another. That means even a good quality spool of regular fishing line can contain quite a range of diameters from one end to the other which really can impact not only your presentation with smaller flies, but also your tippet knot strength.

Yes, spools of "tippet" cost a bit more, but most things made in smaller batches and held to higher quality standards do. Does it matter? One sip of the Woodford Reserve I'm enjoying as I type this certainly suggests so.

In conclusion, you most certainly can use regular fishing line for a leader. It will work and it is not taboo. However, there are tangible reasons for the cost of "tippet material", performance benefits to tapered leaders, and pure functional convenience to the small spools. Hope this helps a bit and doesn't confuse.

Dan Davala


On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Longley <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks guys! Sounds like for anything delicate, I should stick to tippet, but I can pick up some spinning mono for salt and big fish.

Sent from my mobile device

On Dec 30, 2012, at 7:39 PM, "Richard Farino" <ric...@urbanangler.com> wrote:

Most people won't go through 300 yards of any specific size tippet in their lifetime. Also considering the shelf life of some mono if it doesn't sit in an area with no direct sunlight, it usually is easier to just buy the spools of tippet. Most of mine last more than a full season.

And fishing 4x for tailwater midges just sounds silly.

R

Richard Farino
Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street 2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 <image001.png>

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of R...@robsnowhite.com
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:04 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} tippet, leaders, and spinning line

Almost exclusively. Vicious, Berkeley vanish, and seagur (sp?).

I don't throw small flies that often. Ill have a spool of fly shop 4x for tail water midges.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Matthew Longley <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Curious if anyone uses spinning line as a substitute for leaders or tippet. Is this fly fishing taboo? It seems about 10x cheaper, and for less picky fish I wonder if it makes a difference.

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Has anyone done well at Four Mile Run recently?

Miles, we clearly don't know each other which was one of the mistakes i made in a previous post...

First off, I actually agree with a majority of what you and Dan are saying. I guess you were both eager to push back and it certainly is easier attacking a strawman rather than the points i made....

I think there is a distinction to be made between the terms 'public' and 'promotion'. I have actively posted and supported providing the resources people need to find publicly available information on fishing opportunities in the region and will gladly do another post with links and resources to both explore and find good fishing opportunities for bass, trout, stripers, whatever. And I've never made an argument against promoting streams and access points that are good places to learn, take a friend, or whatever with stable or mostly stocked populations. However, hotspotting and regularly promoting small streams can put incredible pressure on fairly fragile ecosystems, whether they're "man made" or not.

You then attack me for being disingenuous, which i think is against the rules here, but nonetheless... I am simply saying if we start hotspotting small streams in the park, that are already under enormous pressure, we further focus the pressure and could end up causing serious harm. However, providing the resources to finding all the great fishing opportunities throughout SNP, GW, etc. can help immensely, perhaps more than naming specific water especially in the park where one valley can be slow fishing while the next can have brookies gobbling everything. I think it's great what this group has done for spreading awareness on issues like Didymo, spawning, etc. I wish TPFR had been around when i first started fishing the park because it wasn't until a couple years later at a fly shop that i learned about the damage wading can do to redds and the entire process.

You're closing to that whole argument against hotspotting, "We (people) made those fisheries, and we can make more" is kind of a ridiculous counter to preservation and again refers to arguments i never made. I assume you meant the best by it and that we should create more, but you can take one look at the science on mid-atlantic trout fisheries and realize we're on a mostly downward trend, with skinny water home to native and wild fish getting the hardest hit by warming, acid rain, human pressure, and deforestation.

Back to the point that we don't know each other .. I don't look at this group as competition, otherwise i wouldn't have participated in many of the discussions hopefully providing at least a tenth as much useful advice as i've gotten. I probably introduced a dozen people to fishing on the Potomac or nearby in the last year and regularly recommend this forum as a resource. I personally had never gone after schoolies in the potomac until becoming a member on here and found some of the hints, particularly on fly and line choice particularly useful... For what it's worth, and sorry(?) for not talking about it...i never did it for credit, but I was actively involved in securing federal money for not only the four mile run rehabilitation, but nps land purchases in the big hunting creek watershed and elsewhere, and coordinated with several congressional offices to build a three state, multi-member coalition to fund better science on the impacts of fracking in the Delaware River watershed....I've worked on projects from Bristol Bay and the Elwha restoration (you might see me out on the water with a "Last Dam Summer" hat on occasionally) to the deep water horizon response and funding for the USGS to study and investigate the endocrine disruptor and intersex fish problem plaguing the potomac bass fishery. Lots of people, probably several on here, have done significantly more, but none of this work would have people possible without the recent rise of outdoorsmen in becoming a non-partisan force in protecting public lands. TU, TNC, Ducks Unlimited, their members, and thousands of other groups on a local level have significantly changed the landscape for the better. Great knowing people from this group are involved as well.

Closing up. Wish you all a happy new year, sincere apologies everyone for starting this all with completely the wrong tone. Owe a couple of you some beers if we ever meet. I'll also work on putting together a post with a ton of helpful information and resources for finding and fishing the variety public resources in the area. The local fly shops probably are even better tho, and if you're willing to hire a guide out west, think of supporting the shops and guides locally as well, since they have a ton of knowledge and can help put you and visiting friends and first timers on good fish.

in terms of fishing advice -- Four mile run/gravelly should continue to be slow this week (tho sometimes it'll turn on for an hour or two when the tide/temps peak) as well as most maryland streams, and other mt. streams, as it will continue to be pretty chilly the rest of the week... recommend dickerson for crappie & bass, pa or va springs for trout. be careful tho, banks/rocks are getting icy up in the 'hollers' and falls seem hurt twice as bad in this weather.

Best,

Brendan

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 4:41:12 PM UTC-5, Miles wrote:

Brendan,

I don't find this apology particularly helpful. First, I think you're misunderstanding the point of this club: namely, to encourage people to fish more diversely in our region, and not focus exclusively on teeny-weeny trout. For every angler you bump elbows with on Big Hunting each Saturday, I would reckon TPFR has a half-dozen hitting 4MR, Chain Bridge, the Occoquan, Riverbend, Hemlock Overlook, and other non-trout locations. We spend 80-90% of our time up here talking about everything but trout; the easiest way to keep people from fishing for trout is to show them something better. And your use of SNP is disingenuous: every post I can remember on the subject this fall has recommended people stay out of SNP streams during the spawning season.

Second, I also think you're making a categorical error in how you understand lots of the places we fish. Mossy Creek, Upper South River, Beaver Creek, the Gunpowder, the lower Jackson, and - yes - Big Hunting Creek are man-made fisheries. Even if the trout are 'wild' on Big Hunting, there is no way they would be there now without extensive human intervention. So it's kinda BS to swing the term 'wild' around as if you're standing up for something pristine. We (people) made those fisheries, and we can make more. Those guys on Big Hunting are evidence that there's demand for lots more of these sorts of fisheries.

So where you might look at this forum and this group as lots of competitors who want to fish 'your' favorite spots, I see allies that can help push fisheries managers to make better decisions, and to revitalize -- if not create outright -- more 'wild' trout streams in our region. We've already seen this group join the effort to pressure the Atlantic Fisheries Council to reduce the commercial menhaden catch, and some of us are watching the restoration of 4 Mile Run closely and looking for ways we can get involved (http://alexandriava.gov/uploadedFiles/planning/info/masterplan/Four%20Mile%20Run%20Restoration%20Master%20Plan.pdf) -- just to bring this back to the original thread topic.

Point being: I think your apology would be more effective if you were tuned in to what we're trying to do, and tried to be helpful, rather than woe-is-me whinging about the end of the world as we know it.

thanks,

Miles

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{Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Lo Mejor in 2013!! 4MR Tomorrow

I haven't had the opportunity to attend any beer ties nor meet any of you all out there, however te deso todo lo mejor in 2013!! That is, I wish you all the best as we Puerto Ricans say.

I'll be down at 4mr tomorrow morning for the first time ever, if anyone may be interested let me know. Or just catch me down there.

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

On Monday, December 31, 2012 6:15:30 PM UTC-5, TurbineBlade wrote:

On Monday, December 31, 2012 6:14:48 PM UTC-5, TurbineBlade wrote:
Here's what I have thus far --

The 2 in front are roosters (pheasant) -- full skin. Kept in freezer because I don't really know what to do with 'em. Skinning is easy, I just had to select the ones with the head/neck not completely destroyed from pellets.

The hen is out loose on the other picture there. I'm getting a lot of marabou feathers, and some good soft hackles from the hen. The ruddy-looking feathers in the 3 bags are actually one of my brother in-law's roosters that died (coyote or fox) on the farm a few weeks ago. The head was trashed, but I got a lot of saddle hackles from him that I suspect would make decent woolly buggers. Actually, the marabou has me pretty excited -- which I didn't really anticipate when I first grabbed them up.

And of course the usual box of pheasant tails.

I've tried to remove as much tissue as possible, and I've salted the stuff to dry it. I'll probably keep a lot in the freezer when not in use just as a precaution.

I'll try to bring some to the next tie so if anyone wants a few to mess around with, it's cool with me. I pheasant hunt in MO every Christmas but I've never kept feathers until this year. I bet I've tossed 30+ good skins that I wish I'd kept now! ;)

Thanks for the tips and info!

I'll get some practice of my "pheasant and orange" soft hackles and smaller woolly buggers.

Gene

On Monday, December 31, 2012 3:54:07 PM UTC-5, Steve F wrote:
So as I see it, be sure to scrape as much meat/fat/sinew out of the hides as possible, douse liberally with borax, maybe throw it in the freezer for a couple days, and it should be good to go? Or is there a curing/drying step that should happen in there as well?

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

On Monday, December 31, 2012 6:14:48 PM UTC-5, TurbineBlade wrote:

Here's what I have thus far --

The 2 in front are roosters (pheasant) -- full skin. Kept in freezer because I don't really know what to do with 'em. Skinning is easy, I just had to select the ones with the head/neck not completely destroyed from pellets.

The hen is out loose on the other picture there. I'm getting a lot of marabou feathers, and some good soft hackles from the hen. The ruddy-looking feathers in the 3 bags are actually one of my brother in-law's roosters that died (coyote or fox) on the farm a few weeks ago. The head was trashed, but I got a lot of saddle hackles from him that I suspect would make decent woolly buggers. Actually, the marabou has me pretty excited -- which I didn't really anticipate when I first grabbed them up.

And of course the usual box of pheasant tails.

I've tried to remove as much tissue as possible, and I've salted the stuff to dry it. I'll probably keep a lot in the freezer when not in use just as a precaution.

I'll try to bring some to the next tie so if anyone wants a few to mess around with, it's cool with me. I pheasant hunt in MO every Christmas but I've never kept feathers until this year. I bet I've tossed 30+ good skins that I wish I'd kept now! ;)

Thanks for the tips and info!

I'll get some practice of my "pheasant and orange" soft hackles and smaller woolly buggers.

Gene

On Monday, December 31, 2012 3:54:07 PM UTC-5, Steve F wrote:
So as I see it, be sure to scrape as much meat/fat/sinew out of the hides as possible, douse liberally with borax, maybe throw it in the freezer for a couple days, and it should be good to go? Or is there a curing/drying step that should happen in there as well?

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

Here's what I have thus far --

The 2 in front are roosters (pheasant) -- full skin. Kept in freezer because I don't really know what to do with 'em. Skinning is easy, I just had to select the ones with the head/neck not completely destroyed from pellets.

The hen is out loose on the other picture there. I'm getting a lot of marabou feathers, and some good soft hackles from the hen. The ruddy-looking feathers in the 3 bags are actually one of my brother in-law's roosters that died (coyote or fox) on the farm a few weeks ago. The head was trashed, but I got a lot of saddle hackles from him that I suspect would make decent woolly buggers. Actually, the marabou has me pretty excited -- which I didn't really anticipate when I first grabbed them up.

And of course the usual box of pheasant tails.

I've tried to remove as much tissue as possible, and I've salted the stuff to dry it. I'll probably keep a lot in the freezer when not in use just as a precaution.

I'll try to bring some to the next tie so if anyone wants a few to mess around with, it's cool with me. I pheasant hunt in MO every Christmas but I've never kept feathers until this year. I bet I've tossed 30+ good skins that I wish I'd kept now! ;)

Thanks for the tips and info!

I'll get some practice of my "pheasant and orange" soft hackles and smaller woolly buggers.

Gene

On Monday, December 31, 2012 3:54:07 PM UTC-5, Steve F wrote:

So as I see it, be sure to scrape as much meat/fat/sinew out of the hides as possible, douse liberally with borax, maybe throw it in the freezer for a couple days, and it should be good to go? Or is there a curing/drying step that should happen in there as well?

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

So as I see it, be sure to scrape as much meat/fat/sinew out of the hides as possible, douse liberally with borax, maybe throw it in the freezer for a couple days, and it should be good to go? Or is there a curing/drying step that should happen in there as well?

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

I also found parasites one time in a bucktail friend gave me after being preserved in the freezer in salt for about 3 months. Just be cautious and you should be fine.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 3:36 PM, ROBERT BISHOP <rdjbishop@verizon.net> wrote:

Keep in mind that feathers usually have some blood in the main quill. Friend of mine tells a story of sorting turkey feathers one night while watching TV and suddenly realizing the quills had maggots in them. I imagine (but don't really know) that freezing them would dry the blood.

From: "Rob@robsnowhite.com" <rob@robsnowhite.com>
To: "tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com" <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

Once a host is dead the parasites will jump ship and abandon the host in search of a new food source. Once the bird or mammal is dead most should be long one by the time you get the tails etc home.

They are there to feed mostly on blood and thus not a harm to other tying materials.

Freezing is more for moth and beetle (dermestid) infestation once the material has been cured.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Danny Barrett <dannytbarrett@gmail.com> wrote:

I hunt a lot and keep many random materials for tying. Personally I just put stuff some salt or any taxidermy chemicals i have on the skin side. the most common one i use for taxidermy is borax. But salt seems to do the trick, i just have an abundance of the borax laying around. hope this helps

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Steve F <spfbeaver@gmail.com> wrote:

To echo TB's comments in another thread,

I have friends with a few hunting trips planned and I'd like them save me some tying materials! Not sure what they hunt as of yet but I would assume duck/pheseant/turkey etc. What should be done to preserve the materials? I've heard of freezing to kill parasites and TB said something about borax for the skins. Any links or suggestions?
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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

Keep in mind that feathers usually have some blood in the main quill. Friend of mine tells a story of sorting turkey feathers one night while watching TV and suddenly realizing the quills had maggots in them. I imagine (but don't really know) that freezing them would dry the blood.

From: "Rob@robsnowhite.com" <rob@robsnowhite.com>
To: "tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com" <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

Once a host is dead the parasites will jump ship and abandon the host in search of a new food source. Once the bird or mammal is dead most should be long one by the time you get the tails etc home.

They are there to feed mostly on blood and thus not a harm to other tying materials.

Freezing is more for moth and beetle (dermestid) infestation once the material has been cured.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Danny Barrett <dannytbarrett@gmail.com> wrote:

I hunt a lot and keep many random materials for tying. Personally I just put stuff some salt or any taxidermy chemicals i have on the skin side. the most common one i use for taxidermy is borax. But salt seems to do the trick, i just have an abundance of the borax laying around. hope this helps

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Steve F <spfbeaver@gmail.com> wrote:

To echo TB's comments in another thread,

I have friends with a few hunting trips planned and I'd like them save me some tying materials! Not sure what they hunt as of yet but I would assume duck/pheseant/turkey etc. What should be done to preserve the materials? I've heard of freezing to kill parasites and TB said something about borax for the skins. Any links or suggestions?
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Morgantown, WV 26505

dannytbarrett@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

Once a host is dead the parasites will jump ship and abandon the host in search of a new food source. Once the bird or mammal is dead most should be long one by the time you get the tails etc home.

They are there to feed mostly on blood and thus not a harm to other tying materials.

Freezing is more for moth and beetle (dermestid) infestation once the material has been cured.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Danny Barrett <dannytbarrett@gmail.com> wrote:

I hunt a lot and keep many random materials for tying. Personally I just put stuff some salt or any taxidermy chemicals i have on the skin side. the most common one i use for taxidermy is borax. But salt seems to do the trick, i just have an abundance of the borax laying around. hope this helps

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Steve F <spfbeaver@gmail.com> wrote:

To echo TB's comments in another thread,

I have friends with a few hunting trips planned and I'd like them save me some tying materials! Not sure what they hunt as of yet but I would assume duck/pheseant/turkey etc. What should be done to preserve the materials? I've heard of freezing to kill parasites and TB said something about borax for the skins. Any links or suggestions?

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

I hunt a lot and keep many random materials for tying. Personally I just put stuff some salt or any taxidermy chemicals i have on the skin side. the most common one i use for taxidermy is borax. But salt seems to do the trick, i just have an abundance of the borax laying around. hope this helps

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Steve F <spfbeaver@gmail.com> wrote:

To echo TB's comments in another thread,

I have friends with a few hunting trips planned and I'd like them save me some tying materials! Not sure what they hunt as of yet but I would assume duck/pheseant/turkey etc. What should be done to preserve the materials? I've heard of freezing to kill parasites and TB said something about borax for the skins. Any links or suggestions?

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Dan Barrett

32 Highland Ave.

Morgantown, WV 26505

dannytbarrett@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: 'On the hunt' for materials...

Consider beyond preservation: a lot if these fresh, wild pieces will have bugs too. You'll need to ensure you rid the pelts of those.

On Dec 31, 2012 1:57 PM, "Aaron O" <aaron@jorgeinc.com> wrote:

Steve, Great question. I was just thinking the same thing. I have a friend of mine that gave me two buck tails that he had in the freezer and the only way I was informed to preserve it was to salt the meat end of the tail. I am also keeping it hanging in my cold basement to better preserve it. I'm sure this does work to an extent but is there a better way to preserve this?

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{Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: 'On the hunt' for materials...

Steve, Great question. I was just thinking the same thing. I have a friend of mine that gave me two buck tails that he had in the freezer and the only way I was informed to preserve it was to salt the meat end of the tail. I am also keeping it hanging in my cold basement to better preserve it. I'm sure this does work to an extent but is there a better way to preserve this?

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{Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} 'On the hunt' for materials...

To echo TB's comments in another thread,

I have friends with a few hunting trips planned and I'd like them save me some tying materials! Not sure what they hunt as of yet but I would assume duck/pheseant/turkey etc. What should be done to preserve the materials? I've heard of freezing to kill parasites and TB said something about borax for the skins. Any links or suggestions?

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Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} tippet, leaders, and spinning line

Awesome post! Thanks, Dan!

On Dec 31, 2012, at 1:48 AM, Daniel Davala <daniel.davala@gmail.com> wrote:

Great thread guys, here are a few of my thoughts on the matter. When I started fly fishing in my early teens, I didn't even know what a tapered leader was. I had never heard the term "tippet", and X's were just something George Strait sung about that lived in Texas (I was quite the country boy back then with quite the mullet too). In fact, I'm glad I didn't know what these things were because it might have scared me away - I just wanted to try fishing with a fly rod, right? I did know I needed a leader though, so I just used a rod length of what I had a lot of - 12lb Berkley Trilene - red label. Why Trilene? Simple - because I liked watching Hank Parker (not Patterson) fish on TV in the 80's and he used it!

Most of my fly fishing then was for Panfish and Bass, and some occasional streamer fishing for Trout on camping trips. Simply put, my 8' un-tapered leader of 12lb Berkley Trilene turned over my "Dial a Popper" Bass bugs and Black Ghost or Muddler Minnow streamers just fine. I caught plenty of fish and more importantly, I had tons of FUN! So if the question is, "can I use regular fishing line for leaders", the short answer is YES! That was how I started and it clearly didn't ruin my experience.

One point of clarification on something Carl said earlier too, a leader does not actually "need" to be tapered to be a "leader". The term "Leader" simply refers to the length of monofilament line (be it nylon, fluorocarbon, gut, or any other applicable material) between the fly line and the fly. It can be long or short, tapered or not. A leader that has no taper is called a "Level Leader". A great and practical example is how we rig for Shad in the Spring, and for most sinking line work in general - with a 2'-3' un-tapered "Leader" of the appropriate breaking strength. Also, a 7'-9' un-tapered ("level") leader of 25lb test can work great on a floating line for Bass in thick lilly pads.

SO THEN.........WHY EVEN USE ACTUAL TAPERED LEADERS AND FLY FISHING SPECIFIC TIPPET MATERIAL???????????????

Well, if you only plan on fishing with large or weighted flies, hard body poppers, and heavy nymphs, technically you don't need to. The simple test is, if you can easily throw the fly you want to fish with at least a rod length away, then it has enough mass to turn itself over at the end of a cast, so a tapered leader is not required.  BUT, there are definite performance benefits to using one. Besides turning the fly over, part of a tapered leader's job is to transition the energy of a cast from the fly line all the way to the fly. Ideally, the thicker butt section of the leader should be kept in close proximity to the diameter of the very tip of the fly line, so the energy transfer is as seamless as possible. Without that thick leader butt section, the fly line has a tendency to "kick" as the tip unrolls and can throw a shock wave straight down the leader to the fly causing it to smack down harder than intended or flop off-target. Also, when using and un-tapered "level" leader, you are just as likely to break off at the line/leader connection as you are at the fly, so you stand to lose the whole leader any time you snag or hang up on something. The thick butt section of a tapered leader is usually in the neighborhood of 50lb test, so it is likely you will only break off at the knot attaching the fly.

If one fishes with a wide variety of flies, both in type and size (such as when Trout Fishing), then it is hard to be fully effective without a tapered leader and a wide range of tippet sizes.  Most dry flies really need the help and design of a tapered leader to turn over well (fully extend) at the end of a cast. It is also important to keep the very tip of the leader, or "tippet" section diameter relative to the size of fly being used. When I go trout fishing in all but small streams, I carry with me spools of tippet from 0X-7X since I may fish a #2 streamer at one time, a #24 Trico at another, and anything in between over the course of a day. Carrying 8 small spools of "tippet material" is infinitely easier and lighter than large mix/match spools of conventional fishing line, and it allows me to conveniently build, modify, and rebuild my leader as necessary.

The convenience of the smaller spools is also great when fishing locally on the Potomac. Most days on the river, at least when Striper fishing, I carry only a pair of forceps, some snips, a tippet spool of 16lb fluoro (or 0X), and a pocket sized box of Clousers.  Hard to beat that kind of simplicity!

And last, there certainly is a difference in quality/consistency when comparing mono-filament sold as "fly fishing tippet" to the large spools of conventional fishing line. Tippet sold as 0X-8X, for example, is graded on diameter, so the tolerances are much tighter and the diameter is the same from one end to the other. Bulk spools of conventional fishing line have a diameter range printed on the spool, so a 300yd spool of 8# test may have an acceptable diameter allowance of .008"-.010" from one end to another. That means even a good quality spool of regular fishing line can contain quite a range of diameters from one end to the other which really can impact not only your presentation with smaller flies, but also your tippet knot strength.

Yes, spools of "tippet" cost a bit more, but most things made in smaller batches and held to higher quality standards do. Does it matter? One sip of the Woodford Reserve I'm enjoying as I type this certainly suggests so.

In conclusion, you most certainly can use regular fishing line for a leader. It will work and it is not taboo. However, there are tangible reasons for the cost of "tippet material", performance benefits to tapered leaders, and pure functional convenience to the small spools. Hope this helps a bit and doesn't confuse.

Dan Davala


On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Longley <matthew.longley@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks guys! Sounds like for anything delicate, I should stick to tippet, but I can pick up some spinning mono for salt and big fish.

Sent from my mobile device

On Dec 30, 2012, at 7:39 PM, "Richard Farino" <richard@urbanangler.com> wrote:

Most people won't go through 300 yards of any specific size tippet in their lifetime. Also considering the shelf life of some mono if it doesn't sit in an area with no direct sunlight, it usually is easier to just buy the spools of tippet. Most of mine last more than a full season.

And fishing 4x for tailwater midges just sounds silly.

R

Richard Farino
Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street 2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 <image001.png>

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | richard@urbanangler.com

From: tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob@robsnowhite.com
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:04 PM
To: tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} tippet, leaders, and spinning line

Almost exclusively. Vicious, Berkeley vanish, and seagur (sp?).

I don't throw small flies that often. Ill have a spool of fly shop 4x for tail water midges.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Matthew Longley <matthew.longley@gmail.com> wrote:

Curious if anyone uses spinning line as a substitute for leaders or tippet. Is this fly fishing taboo? It seems about 10x cheaper, and for less picky fish I wonder if it makes a difference.

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